[gobolinux-users] gobolinux-users Digest, Vol 32, Issue 33

Sat May 26 21:43:34 UTC 2007

>
>
> Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 22:56:38 +0200
> From: "Jonas Karlsson" <jonka750 at student.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: [gobolinux-users] Gobolinux Forum?
> To: gobolinux-users at lists.gobolinux.org
> Message-ID: <op.tsycgoc3llys5b at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15
>
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:38:32 +0200, molfar <molfar.ua at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 5/26/07, Jonas Karlsson <jonka750 at student.liu.se> wrote:
> >> Why? What's good about gmail? Really?
> > Integration. It's almost a WebOS (i mean Google services as a whole).
> >
> Intergration with what? For something to be intergrated, it has to
> have something to be intergrated with.
> And why do you hope that more users use it, only because of intergration?
>
> >> 1. What advantage does that give me as a gmail user?
> > As a Gmail user it gives me several advantages. It is a part of google
> > services that all share same google account login and password. Thus,
> > when I have Gmail opened in my browser - I can open Google Docs,
> > Reader, Blogger, Calendar, Groups, Photos, Video etc. without
> > resorting to tedious authentication procedure.
> > Also, you can post to group via web-interface. And while Gmane allows
> > for the same thing - I don't like the idea of having throng of
> > registrations and approvals to be able to communicate. That's why
> > Google's all-in-one principle if far more superior and convenient and
> > most appealing to any gmail user. But sure, if you don't use any of
> > google services you won't appreciate it.
> >
> So this discussion has turned into a pro/con discussion of google groups?
> I thought it was about if/how we should adopt a forum. I do believe we
> should have a forum, but I don't think that google groups is one. I'd
> rather use a "real" forum.
>
> >> How? I fail to see how google groups give better search results. Have
> you tried
> >> searching with gmane? Ok, it's harder to search the lists with google,
> but isn't
> >> that true if we use a forum as well?
> > I'm afraid you didn't get my point. Any average user won't even know
> > about such thing as Gmane, not to hope that use it to search for
> > needed info. But any average user does google search every day thus
> > there is much better chance that he stumbles upon the needed info if
> > it is tightly woven into highly popular info-gathering behemoth that
> > is google.
> >
> So does google groups have significant larger penetration among average
> users then? I tried to do a quick search using the main search of google
> for some random topics in the users list and I found relevant topics for
> all the searches, so I can't see what's the problem with searching here.
> Just use the keyword 'gobolinux' (basic search knowledge). The only
> problem as I see it is that the hits returned was on the
> lists.gobolinux.org domain, and not the gmane interface.
>
> >> Not a good thing imo. But if you want, gmane supports gravatar
> > Gravatar is an external service, while google profile avatars are
> > stored in within google internally. And again, I don't want to have
> > dozens of accounts on different services if I can have it all-in-one.
> >
> So a forum wouldn't be another service requiring a login? If gravatars
> isn't good for you, how about picons
> (http://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/picons/) or x-face
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face)? Gmane supports them both. And
> another good thing about these services is that there are more software
> that supports them as well, not just gmane.
>
> >> Better than mailman?
> > I didn't moderate mailman, so it's better to ask someone who can
> > compare it in detail, however from what I've seen it might certainly
> > be.
> >
> Huh!? My question was how google groups were superiour to gmane and your
> reply was "it[google groups] allows good moderation". As you haven't
> moderated mailman you just made that point up. You can't just make loose
> claims in an argument like that.
> I have a reason not to use google:
> * google eats babies
> therefore we should not use google groups.
>
> >> > * it allows group moderators and members to create additional pages
> >> These things should be on site instead.
> > There are different kinds of info, and it could be more feasible to
> > have something special there and not on the main site (sorry if that
> > FAQ example was a bit misleading) - say, some hot info on config
> > issues, problem diagnostics, sandbox, developing news, etc. etc. Just
> > be creative.
>
> Should still be on the main site, as the information is for the entire
> GoboLinux community, not just the users of google groups.
>
> >> Our mailman setup doesn't show e-mail addresses either.
> > Really? And why can I see my address when I read the list through Gmane?
> > It is exactly "molfar.ua <at> gmail.com". How is that about
> > obfuscation? Certainly, there might be some procedures to hide it from
> > robots not people, but still, having it this way so that anyone can
> > see it that easily - makes me feel a bit exposed.
> >
> Your mail isn't in correct format and the link doesn't point to your
> address, but to the mailing list address. I don't know how smart the
> harvest robots are, but combining these two would give some sort of
> protection.
>
> >> I have browsed around in some groups at google, but I fail to find in
> what way
> >> that interface is superior to gmane's. Have you looked at all gmane's
> options
> >> at http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.gobo.general ?
> > Yes I have. Ok, it might be about personal taste, but here it goes:
> > - There is no UTF8 suport (at least visible). Just have a look at
> > Viola Zoltan's "from" header. Really, a pleasant sight to see))
> Agreed, but really not a decisive point.
>
> > - Gmane is less intuitive in threaded view. What are those selection
> > boxes ith upper right corner? Why there is no explanation at place?
> Here is one of gmane's real downsides. It's interface isn't very
> intuitive.
>
> > - You can't sort messages in threaded view by date.
> in blog view you can.
>
> > - It is easier to comprehend the flow in Google Groups. Horizontal
> > threaded view is more intuitive and polished that that vertical of
> > Gmane's. When you point at any mail in the right window you
> > immediately have a pointer in the left window corresponding to it's
> > relevant position in the thread. Thus it it easier to follow who
> > answered whom.
> Horizontal vs. vertical view is subject to personal opinion, so not a
> valid point.
> As for who responded to whom, in gmane the current e-mail is marked
> in the thread list, so you can see where you are in the thread. I
> fail to see the difference.
>
> > - Gmane's flat view is considerably better that threaded one however
> > it has got some problems either. For examle, the font size is not
> > consistent throughout the thread, despite the fact, that all the
> > messages are plain text.
> > That's it for now.
> >
> > Some more gimmicks to add as a bonus:
> > + you can "rate" posts (if you used Digg or osnews rating system
> > you'll understand what I mean)
> For rating to be useful you need a much larger userbase than we have
> today.
>
> > + you can make a group private
> You can make a list private
>
> > + you don't have to host your lists. Google takes care of everything.
> >
> And that's one of the reasons I don't want to use google groups. I'd
> rather host the lists myself.
>
> > All in all, Gmane is just a hack to make mail-list system more
> > accessible but it doesn't solve its main design-inherent flaws.
> There might be some flaws to gmane/mailing lists but there are
> certanly strengths as well.
>
> > To
> > make it a more visual example - It's just a crutch not even a modern
> > prosthetics. Google groups however, is more like the same system
> > revitalized, almost reinvented. It's much more fun to use. And it is
> > definitely more accessible to newcomers. And all those who prefer all
> > Web 2.0 things.
> I'm sorry but I don't agree to the revitalized, almost reinvented view.
> It might be more fun to use than gmane, but mailman is more fun to use
> imo. And you have to stop making general assumptions and expressing
> your views as general accepted views. One (I) can't really differ
> between when you express your opinion and when you try to make a point.
>
> >
> > Again, I don't understand why are you so defensive. You don't lose
> > anything. You can still use your mail-list technology only with
> > different recipient field, but no matter what you insist on
> > restricting me from using more progressive tech just because you don't
> > like it and drag behind with and old school way of doing things.
> > That's just too conservative.
> >
> "I" do loose something. "I" loose the control of the hosting of "my"
> mailing list. Even if google is a large company that might never go out
> os buisness or that it might never turn bad ("do no harm") I don't want
> to risk that.
>
> I do like the way you try to make me look bad because I'm stealing your
> opportunity away by being a conservative "twat". You haven't even looked
> at the other alternative I've proposed - the origin of this thread.
> A forum! With mailing list proxy!
>
> As you know we did have a forum, which did well until it died. After
> that noone had time or energy to set a new one up. Back then I was the
> only dev regurlarly visiting that forum and answering/relaying questions.
> I think that solution would be ok today as well.
>
> Another note, since when does it "seems that people may support the idea
> of moving it to Google Groups completely" (taken from your post in the
> old gobolinux google group)? If I haven't missed something the only
> person yet to agree is Michael.
> And the use of "Official Gobolinux-Users Group" in the topic made me
> cringe, even though you say "possibly official Gobolinux-Usres[sic]
> group" in the message, people tend to read the topic more carefully then
> the message. Doing stunts like this will not make you win your cause -
> quite the contrary. At least with me.
> And you think that "If there is some activity - the developers might come"
> - you can't be more wrong. You can't force anyone, which is what you're
> trying to do. At least it feels that way.
>
> --
> /Jonas
>
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

as has been said, this thread is quite long, so i wont write much,
just thought i'd say that i dont see google groups as the answer.
i've used it before and its not bad at all, but i think it would be better
to have a forum AND the current mailing lists.
And the forum to be more new/unexperienced user focused,
not for the devs to use it for communication.
Also i and i'm sure others wouldn't mind helping out with the forum
and for example, if there is a post that goes unanswered the people
who are moderating the forum can call for help in a mailing list.

Conclusion:
leave mailing lists as is, add end-user focused forum to help
accomodate the newbies and make gobolinux an easier switch
for those who are used to distros with forums.

ps. it would have to reside with a gobo url
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