[gobolinux-users] Gobolinux Forum?

[Michael Homer]

On 5/27/07, Jonas Karlsson <jonka750 at student.liu.se> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:38:32 +0200, molfar <molfar.ua at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 5/26/07, Jonas Karlsson <jonka750 at student.liu.se> wrote:
> >> Why? What's good about gmail? Really?
> > Integration. It's almost a WebOS (i mean Google services as a whole).
> >
> Intergration with what? For something to be intergrated, it has to
> have something to be intergrated with.
> And why do you hope that more users use it, only because of intergration?
I don't think this point was valid either.
> >> 1. What advantage does that give me as a gmail user?
> > As a Gmail user it gives me several advantages. It is a part of google
> > services that all share same google account login and password. Thus,
> > when I have Gmail opened in my browser - I can open Google Docs,
> > Reader, Blogger, Calendar, Groups, Photos, Video etc. without
> > resorting to tedious authentication procedure.
> > Also, you can post to group via web-interface. And while Gmane allows
> > for the same thing - I don't like the idea of having throng of
> > registrations and approvals to be able to communicate. That's why
> > Google's all-in-one principle if far more superior and convenient and
> > most appealing to any gmail user. But sure, if you don't use any of
> > google services you won't appreciate it.
> >
> So this discussion has turned into a pro/con discussion of google groups?
> I thought it was about if/how we should adopt a forum. I do believe we
> should have a forum, but I don't think that google groups is one. I'd
> rather use a "real" forum.
> >> How? I fail to see how google groups give better search results. Have you tried
> >> searching with gmane? Ok, it's harder to search the lists with google, but isn't
> >> that true if we use a forum as well?
> > I'm afraid you didn't get my point. Any average user won't even know
> > about such thing as Gmane, not to hope that use it to search for
> > needed info. But any average user does google search every day thus
> > there is much better chance that he stumbles upon the needed info if
> > it is tightly woven into highly popular info-gathering behemoth that
> > is google.
> >
> So does google groups have significant larger penetration among average
> users then? I tried to do a quick search using the main search of google
> for some random topics in the users list and I found relevant topics for
> all the searches, so I can't see what's the problem with searching here.
> Just use the keyword 'gobolinux' (basic search knowledge). The only
> problem as I see it is that the hits returned was on the
> lists.gobolinux.org domain, and not the gmane interface.

> >> Not a good thing imo. But if you want, gmane supports gravatar
> > Gravatar is an external service, while google profile avatars are
> > stored in within google internally. And again, I don't want to have
> > dozens of accounts on different services if I can have it all-in-one.
> >
> So a forum wouldn't be another service requiring a login? If gravatars
> isn't good for you, how about picons
> (http://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/faces/picons/) or x-face
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face)? Gmane supports them both. And
> another good thing about these services is that there are more software
> that supports them as well, not just gmane.
>
> >> Better than mailman?
> > I didn't moderate mailman, so it's better to ask someone who can
> > compare it in detail, however from what I've seen it might certainly
> > be.
> >
> Huh!? My question was how google groups were superiour to gmane and your
> reply was "it[google groups] allows good moderation". As you haven't
> moderated mailman you just made that point up. You can't just make loose
> claims in an argument like that.
> I have a reason not to use google:
> * google eats babies
> therefore we should not use google groups.
Mailman does have perfectly passable moderation. Neither of them is
any better than the other in that respect.
> >> > * it allows group moderators and members to create additional pages
> >> These things should be on site instead.
> > There are different kinds of info, and it could be more feasible to
> > have something special there and not on the main site (sorry if that
> > FAQ example was a bit misleading) - say, some hot info on config
> > issues, problem diagnostics, sandbox, developing news, etc. etc. Just
> > be creative.
>
> Should still be on the main site, as the information is for the entire
> GoboLinux community, not just the users of google groups.
Agreed.
> >> Our mailman setup doesn't show e-mail addresses either.
> > Really? And why can I see my address when I read the list through Gmane?
> > It is exactly "molfar.ua <at> gmail.com". How is that about
> > obfuscation? Certainly, there might be some procedures to hide it from
> > robots not people, but still, having it this way so that anyone can
> > see it that easily - makes me feel a bit exposed.
> >
> Your mail isn't in correct format and the link doesn't point to your
> address, but to the mailing list address. I don't know how smart the
> harvest robots are, but combining these two would give some sort of
> protection.
It's pretty useless protection, since it's a known format. That's
really the major advantage in using Google groups that I see, since I
don't really care about a web interface. We could make the list
archives private now, but then they wouldn't be searchable.
> >> I have browsed around in some groups at google, but I fail to find in what way
> >> that interface is superior to gmane's. Have you looked at all gmane's options
> >> at http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.gobo.general ?
> > Yes I have. Ok, it might be about personal taste, but here it goes:
> > - There is no UTF8 suport (at least visible). Just have a look at
> > Viola Zoltan's "from" header. Really, a pleasant sight to see))
> Agreed, but really not a decisive point.
>
> > - Gmane is less intuitive in threaded view. What are those selection
> > boxes ith upper right corner? Why there is no explanation at place?
> Here is one of gmane's real downsides. It's interface isn't very
> intuitive.
>
> > - You can't sort messages in threaded view by date.
> in blog view you can.
>
> > - It is easier to comprehend the flow in Google Groups. Horizontal
> > threaded view is more intuitive and polished that that vertical of
> > Gmane's. When you point at any mail in the right window you
> > immediately have a pointer in the left window corresponding to it's
> > relevant position in the thread. Thus it it easier to follow who
> > answered whom.
> Horizontal vs. vertical view is subject to personal opinion, so not a
> valid point.
> As for who responded to whom, in gmane the current e-mail is marked
> in the thread list, so you can see where you are in the thread. I
> fail to see the difference.
>
> > - Gmane's flat view is considerably better that threaded one however
> > it has got some problems either. For examle, the font size is not
> > consistent throughout the thread, despite the fact, that all the
> > messages are plain text.
> > That's it for now.
> >
> > Some more gimmicks to add as a bonus:
> > + you can "rate" posts (if you used Digg or osnews rating system
> > you'll understand what I mean)
> For rating to be useful you need a much larger userbase than we have
> today.
>
> > + you can make a group private
> You can make a list private
But we can't, because we'd lose searchability. Mailman doesn't have
any search functionality built in, so you have to use a search engine.
> > + you don't have to host your lists. Google takes care of everything.
> >
> And that's one of the reasons I don't want to use google groups. I'd
> rather host the lists myself.
I don't think that's an advantage either. Plenty of people here are
willing and able to host the mailing lists.
> > All in all, Gmane is just a hack to make mail-list system more
> > accessible but it doesn't solve its main design-inherent flaws.
> There might be some flaws to gmane/mailing lists but there are
> certanly strengths as well.
>
> > To
> > make it a more visual example - It's just a crutch not even a modern
> > prosthetics. Google groups however, is more like the same system
> > revitalized, almost reinvented. It's much more fun to use. And it is
> > definitely more accessible to newcomers. And all those who prefer all
> > Web 2.0 things.
> I'm sorry but I don't agree to the revitalized, almost reinvented view.
> It might be more fun to use than gmane, but mailman is more fun to use
> imo. And you have to stop making general assumptions and expressing
> your views as general accepted views. One (I) can't really differ
> between when you express your opinion and when you try to make a point.
>
> >
> > Again, I don't understand why are you so defensive. You don't lose
> > anything. You can still use your mail-list technology only with
> > different recipient field, but no matter what you insist on
> > restricting me from using more progressive tech just because you don't
> > like it and drag behind with and old school way of doing things.
> > That's just too conservative.
> >
> "I" do loose something. "I" loose the control of the hosting of "my"
> mailing list. Even if google is a large company that might never go out
> os buisness or that it might never turn bad ("do no harm") I don't want
> to risk that.
>
> I do like the way you try to make me look bad because I'm stealing your
> opportunity away by being a conservative "twat". You haven't even looked
> at the other alternative I've proposed - the origin of this thread.
> A forum! With mailing list proxy!
If we could do that it would be a much better option. I don't know of
decent software that does it, but I see something was suggested
earlier in the thread that we should look into.
> As you know we did have a forum, which did well until it died. After
> that noone had time or energy to set a new one up. Back then I was the
> only dev regurlarly visiting that forum and answering/relaying questions.
> I think that solution would be ok today as well.
>
> Another note, since when does it "seems that people may support the idea
> of moving it to Google Groups completely" (taken from your post in the
> old gobolinux google group)? If I haven't missed something the only
> person yet to agree is Michael.
I am open to it; I don't think it loses us anything substantial. I
prefer the mailing list, but if we can make it more usable for other
people without costing the rest of us anything I think it's worth
considering. If we could link a mailing list and forum properly that
would probably be better still (but it's a big if, and probably a pipe
dream to have done well). If nothing changed from here it wouldn't
bother me.

So I am a "maybe", if other people were on board (which they aren't)
> And the use of "Official Gobolinux-Users Group" in the topic made me
> cringe, even though you say "possibly official Gobolinux-Usres[sic]
> group" in the message, people tend to read the topic more carefully then
> the message. Doing stunts like this will not make you win your cause -
> quite the contrary. At least with me.
Yes.
> And you think that "If there is some activity - the developers might come"
> - you can't be more wrong. You can't force anyone, which is what you're
> trying to do. At least it feels that way.
Yes.

molfar, I really don't think you're following the best strategy here.
Rubbing people the wrong way just doesn't help. Everyone could benefit
from holding back a little here, too, including my snarky comments
earlier. Sorry about that.

It seems nobody wants Google Groups - Carlo's message just came in,
and he has the same leeriness of off-domain solutions I mentioned, so
there must be -something- to it. In that case, a forum still wouldn't
hurt, so long as it's done properly and is actually self-sustaining.
That part's important.

I have a suggestion: set one up (forums.gobolinux.org) as a trial
balloon, and see how it goes. If we can have it mail the list when new
topics are posted it would help make sure it wasn't too neglected, or
if there are enough people willing to do the rounds. Also, everything
Carlo said. If it turned out that it wasn't going to be
self-sustaining enough, shut it down and reconsider again later on.
-Michael